About Our Guest- Jordanna Quinn, DO – Stem Cells and Regenerative Medicine
Dr. Jordanna Quinn, D.O. is board certified in Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation and has specialty training in Regenerative medicine, Functional medicine, and Aesthetics.
Dr. Quinn has extensive experience with athletes of all types, professional and amateur. She enjoys helping athletes and busy entrepreneurs feel and look better, by figuring out exactly what the patients’ goals are, taking measurable steps to achieve them. Dr. Quinn’s extensive training and persistent love of learning enable to her offer an extensive realm of treatments to her patients, including stem cells, genetic testing, hormone treatments, IV therapies, aesthetic treatments and more.
Dr. Quinn is a true advocate of “practice what you preach.” She does not recommend treatments to patients that she would not be willing to do to herself or her family.
When Dr. Quinn is not working, she enjoys mountain biking, snowboarding, yoga, traveling, biohacking her health, and spending time with her family..
Full Podcast Transcription
Jordanna Quinn 01:31
So everybody has said that they just feel better, like generally just better who have done IV stem cells. But he came back and he told me the whole process and he told me that he did IV stem cells and I want to say three or four weeks later, he just kind of talked me through the process of things hurting and then feeling better. And it was all in areas where it injured himself before so I just think that’s so awesome. Like the body is so cool that it knows those things.
Diva Nagula 01:57
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of From Doctor to Patient. I have Dr. Jordanna Quinn joining me today she is board certified in physical medicine and rehabilitation and has specialty training in regenerative medicine, functional medicine and aesthetics. Dr. Quinn has extensive experience with athletes of all types; professional and amateur. She enjoys helping athletes and busy entrepreneurs feel and look better by figuring out exactly what the patient’s goals are taking measurable steps to achieve them. Dr. Quinn’s extensive training and persistent love of learning enable her to offer an extensive realm of treatments to her patients including stem cells, genetic testing, hormone treatments, IV therapies, aesthetic treatments, and more. Dr. Quinn is a true advocate of practice what you preach, she does not recommend treatments to patients that she would not be willing to do herself or family. When Dr. Quinn is not working, she enjoys mountain biking, snowboarding, yoga, traveling biohacking her health and spending time with her family. Dr. Quinn, welcome. How are you today?
Jordanna Quinn 03:19 I’m doing well. How are you?
Diva Nagula 03:20
I’m great. Thank you so much for joining me today. Now we were talking offline briefly about our backgrounds. And we do both have a background in physical medicine and rehabilitation otherwise known as PMNR or physiatry. And it’s interesting, it seems like a lot of people who went into that field have espoused regenerative medicine. And was there a specific transition point for you to switch gears to regenerative medicine? Or did it just kind of like become part of your practice and then just consumed your whole practice?
Jordanna Quinn 03:53
Well, for me, I’ve always been more naturally medicine minded I come from being an athlete personally. And so I worked in a pain practice where I was doing a lot of interventional pain and prescribing meds, and it didn’t feel like it fit my personality. And so when I saw, I ended up seeing a couple of Sports Medicine patients during that time, in general, and they also wanted more natural treatments. And so I did a Google search for PRP because I did learn about regenerative medicine in residency. We didn’t do it in residency, but I knew about it. And so when I saw these sports patients who and they were professional athletes, so they couldn’t do steroids or whatever before competition. So we look up PRP and I found a guy close by and I found him a few times and I finally wrote him a letter and told him to hire me essentially because I was like what he does is really cool. And there’s a few other things that I’ve kind of found for patients looking for like alternative treatments, and it always pointed to this one doc in town. So I mean definitely my passion made sense to me and then also found someone a few miles from my house who did it.
Diva Nagula 04:59
So was meant to be. That’s great. Let’s talk a little bit about what regenerative medicine is. It’s
a big scope of field that’s relatively new. And it’s a hot field. So what is regenerative medicine?
Jordanna Quinn 05:12
So regenerative medicine is a scope of medicine where you are really trying to help the body heal itself. And so it’s actually been around for a long time in the form of what’s called prolotherapy, which is not so much what people think of as regenerative medicine today, but it’s really using your body’s own natural healing. And so back in the day, prolotherapy was the only thing around and that was using, essentially a noxious substance, such as most commonly dextrose, which is a sugar solution. And so you’re using dextrose, or other there are other noxious substances as well. But that’s the most common one, and you inject it into an area of injury. And so part of it is the actual injecting of a needle, as we know, just doing it to anatomy really helps heal because it’s bringing in blood flow that wouldn’t otherwise be there. But also, when you’re injecting a noxious substance in your body wants to take it out. So it stimulates blood flow production into an area that doesn’t have one. And blood flow brings all of the healing factors and so inside of your blood, and this will lead me into kind of where regenerative medicine is at today. But inside of your blood, you have your body’s own natural platelets and your own body’s own natural stem cells that serve to heal the area. So, for example, people think of regenerative medicine as just PRP or platelet rich plasma and or stem cells. And the truth of the matter is that emphasis all of those things, and there’s a time place, each one of those including prolotherapy, sometimes sometimes just PRP, and sometimes stem cells are necessary. And so how I like to describe it, if someone’s trying to think of kind of what regenerative medicine does, we’re talking about right now, from mostly like an orthopedic standpoint, I do some aesthetics as well, you could put platelets on your face and stimulate collagen. But really, what you and I are going to be talking about mostly is from an orthopedic standpoint, because regenerative medicine is becoming big in other areas of medicine as well, and I don’t keep up with it. But how I described it to patients is you’re essentially forcing a really potent blood supply to an area that doesn’t have one. So our joints and our ligaments and our tendons don’t have a good blood supply. And so as we get older, they don’t heal as well, because they tend to be watershed areas, meaning, you know, just there’s not a good blood supply. And so we’re taking your blood, or we’re taking your healing cells, and concentrating them down. And so we’re sticking a ton of healing factors into an area that has a poor blood supply. So we’re forcing a blood supply, and a very potent healing blood supply, into an area that doesn’t have one. And so I imagine it like, if you just cut your skin, for example, you have skin stem cells existing in your skin all the time called fibroblasts, but they’re not yet skin, they’re just cells that are waiting for someone to tell them to become skin essentially. Or if you bring your bone the same thing, I mean, there’s bone cells that are waiting for someone to tell them to turn into bone. And so if you’ve got your skin, you have stem cells right there that are super excited to become skin, but you bleed and inside your blood, there’s platelets, and those platelets serve to stop you from bleeding. And then they also are kind of like the general contractor’s of the area, they are calling in growth factors in their pulling in stem cells, you have a small amount, but you have stem cells circulating in your blood. And the stem cells circulating in your blood don’t know what they want to be yet, they’re just kind of scoping it out to see if they want to be bone or skin or whatever else. And so the platelets are the general contractors and so they’re doing the signaling. And so then over time you formed your skin, right you form a scab first and then under the scab, although the growth factors and stem cells are kind of doing their work to try to form skin, and then you have like a scar, and even over the course of three, six months, that scar heals better and better and becomes more like your old skin. As you’ve noticed, as you get older, the ability for you to heal and for your skin to not scar is more and more difficult. And so this is exactly what’s happening in your body, you have less stem cells circulating around, you have worse blood supply. You know, things just don’t work as well for a variety of reasons. So with regenerative medicine, we’re really just trying to force your body to heal itself.
Diva Nagula 09:22
That’s great. Thank you for that explanation. That was very clear. And I appreciate that and kind of leads me to the next question is like, at what point do you use, or if you use both that’s great too, but what do you use platelet rich plasma (PRP) as a mode of treatment versus stem cells?
Diva Nagula 09:22
That’s great. Thank you for that explanation. That was very clear. And I appreciate that and kind of leads me to the next question is like, at what point do you use, or if you use both that’s great too, but what do you use platelet rich plasma (PRP) as a mode of treatment versus stem cells? longer and has better studies and so some other Doc’s refer me just for platelet rich plasma. And so I’ll do that but it’s hard to explain. Obviously, as physicians, medical history is
important, doing a physical exam is important. And so it’s never just one thing. But taking those two things in consideration. And if I could just kind of say one thing, I mean, I generally think if people are looking at joint replacements and knee replacement, ankle replacement, shoulder replacement, they want stem cells, I mean, stem cells are 10 times as potent 10 times the cost. So that’s also a factor, often, as well. But they’re, they’re 10 times as potent. So if cost is no factor, I would almost always do stem cells. Because you’re going to get a, I don’t want to say a better outcome, because PRP is amazing. So many of the times and a lot of the time, it’s all you need, like if there’s just a meniscus tear. I mean, I’m not recommending stem cells ever for just a meniscus tear, unless it’s a pretty complex one, or they have a few things going on. Because it’s just not necessary to spend 1000s of dollars. When I know most people get, I mean a great response with just PRP. So part of its just clinical knowledge. But again, if I had to pick one thing, it would be like if you’re looking at a joint replacement stem cells 100% of the time, anything else we have a conversation about. Also, stem cells is a bigger procedure. So I use autologous stem cells, meaning I take the patient’s own stem cells, and I processed them. And we could talk about this in a minute. And then, you know, concentrate them down and inject their own stem cells into the area. And so it’s bigger procedure. And so also, depending on the patient’s age, and their medical history, you don’t always want to do that bigger procedure, still a much, much, much smaller procedure than getting surgery. But, I guess that being said, I don’t take it lightly, talking to someone about stem cells, because it’s a procedure and so many people will buy stem cells, you can now get amniotic stem cells and umbilical stem cells and something called exosomes. And that’s a huge controversial area in regenerative medicine, and my general recommendation to the public. And I do think there’s a time and a place for purchased stem cells. However, my general recommendation to the public is, if you go see a doctor, and it’s sometimes it’s doctor, and they only can offer you umbilical stem cells or exosomes or something where they’re not saying they’re going to use your own stem cells, you need to find a different provider, you should be able to talk to your doctor about using your own stem cells, or buying stem cells because and I’m very biased about this. But now because you can buy stem cells, anyone can buy stem cells and do it right. So whether you’re a chiropractor, your nurse practitioner, whether you’re not I mean, as a physiatrist, you know, like we do 1000s of injections before we leave residency, and there’s some people who, I don’t want to name it. But you know, so there’s plenty of what I feel like are not well trained physicians or other providers that suddenly decided that stem cells were fun, you know, they don’t have the knowledge to know when to use purchased stem cells versus when to use your own, and may or may not have the injection training that we have, right. So you’re gonna spend 1000s of dollars on a procedure, you really want to make sure that you’re getting a high quality doctor. So I think that’s a very easy way to distinguish someone who actually knows regenerative medicine keeps up with the field is if they know how to get your own stem cells, or not. And again, I’ve done both, but I can have that conversation with my patient. So there’s two types of stem cells, which are your body’s own stem cells, you can get stem cells from fat, or you can get stem cells from bone marrow, which is why it’s a procedure, you’re either doing a mini liposuction, or you’re tapping into someone’s PSIS, like in the back of their hip pelvis, and you’re pulling out stem cells. And well, it’s not a complicated procedure, you know, and obviously takes training. And to get that training, you have to know a lot of Regenerative Medicine, you have to understand the cell biology, or at least you know, have courses, you can’t just pick up the phone and call a stem cell company and say send me stem cells, I want to stick them in someone. So that is my like, warning to patients or people who are looking for Regenerative Medicine is make sure that the person who says they’re going to do stem cells aren’t just like, oh, buy something and I’ll do them at the end of the week, they should let you know about the different modalities and why you might be a good candidate to just buy them or not. In my practice, I do both bone marrow and that because I’ve been in this regenerative medicine world for 10 years. And so 10 years ago, we didn’t understand the difference between bone marrow and fat and we still don’t to be honest, like which one’s better. And there’s people who will only do bone marrow, there’s people who only do fat, I am fortunate enough to have learned both and so most of the time I use both, because we do know that the concentration of stem cells in your fat is greater than anywhere else in your body. However, in bone marrow, supposedly, they’re more robust stem cells. So I think well, we may as well have the best and the most.
Diva Nagula 14:49
Yeah, and it’s interesting. I guess you would use the PRP because it’s more of a signaling cell molecule to really attract other stem cells. So it makes sense to do that. In a more of a less injurous joint, like the meniscal tear or something of that nature, versus if you have a severe joint injury and you really need that volume and that amount of stem cells, then that’s when you go ahead and do the stem cells instead of the PRP. And my question to you is, would you combine the two at any point?
Jordanna Quinn 15:20 Oh yeah!
Diva Nagula 15:21
Okay, so then you’re getting the best of both worlds, you’re tracking stem cells from the platelets, and then you’re also infusing autologous stem cells, so you’re getting the best of both?
Jordanna Quinn 15:30
Correct, I’m 100% of the time during PRP when I’m doing stem cells, that’s just part of what I add into my procedures. I know some people don’t do it that way, because they say, oh, there’s PRP in bone marrow. It’s been years since I’ve looked at, you know, kind of the cell breakdown. But supposedly, there’s some platelets at the end. But really, when you’re doing bone marrow, you don’t want to pull platelets or red cells, you are for sure, but you are trying not to. And so I don’t rely on the amount of platelets that might be in my stem cells from bone marrow, and someone’s in my office doing that procedure for two or three hours. Anyhow, it’s so easy to pull blood and spin it down while I’m doing the other procedures, because PRP is just taking blood. And so that takes about an hour and a half total procedure where stem cells is like three hours. So I always do it. And actually, myself, because I’ve been doing it for so long, what I realized is that really, one stem cell injection is great. And years ago, when there weren’t that many Doc’s doing it, people would fly in to see me because they couldn’t get stem cells anywhere else. And people still fly in because they’ve heard of me or they’ve been my patients for a long time or something like that. But you know, there are a lot of more doctors doing it. And so back in the day, we would just do one stem cell procedure, and they could fly out and a lot of people were doing PRP and so we would find a PRP clinic, because I found it very important to do follow up PRP injections. So I do two follow up PRP injections about a month apart to really stimulate those stem cells that we put in there. Right. So they’re the signaling molecules, and they’re kind of waking up the stem cell, so the stem cells can’t get lazy or whatever. And so they’re waking them up, it just really makes the procedure a lot more robust, in my opinion.
Diva Nagula 17:05
Totally makes sense. And so the idea is, is to essentially attract the stem cells to repair and
heal whatever pathology is going on in the joint.
Jordanna Quinn 17:16 Correct.
Diva Nagula 17:16
Yeah. And then typically, you know, what range of injury? Are you able to treat with this modality? Are you able to treat like, total bone on bone degeneration? Or is it something that you still need a little bit of cartilage that’s present in order for these modalities to work?
Jordanna Quinn 17:34
Yes to both. You do need some cartilage present, you need a matrix to work on it. However, even when people say they’re bone on bone, there’s, most of the time, there’s some sort of cartilage matrix to work with. I’ve only ever once literally seen nothing. And even in that patient, actually, she was non ambulatory. And I think she was 90. And so she wasn’t a candidate anyhow, for total hip replacements. And we injected both of her hips and she got better, you know, I would have told her had she been a candidate to get surgery to just save her money and get surgery because you get 100% better, but she was able to do like, wheelchair to bed transfers without pain, you know, things like that, because she was I mean, she was mostly not ambulatory. So it really significantly helped decrease her pain. I didn’t see her after that for a long period of time to know, you know, 5-10 years later and she did still have pain relief, which is really, at least what I’m looking for when I do stem cells. I tell patients, I think it buys you five to 10 years. And so whether that’s 5 to 10 years, and then I do another one, or then I get a point replacement, people are very happy with that no matter what. And then I have patients who honestly come in yearly. And because I mean, they feel great. They want to prevent further degeneration. And so, you know, you think of it like it’s the opposite of degeneration. So as we get older, we’re all degenerating to some degree. And so with regenerative medicine, you are rebuilding tissue, but you’re not rebuilding it to when you were 25. So, essentially, you’re kind of just balancing out the degeneration. Right. And so I have definitely seen radiographic evidence of not further degeneration where literally the radiologist has called me and been like, well, their knee hasn’t degenerated in the past three years. That’s amazing. And they had pretty severe arthritis. And then I’m like, Oh, we did stem cells three years ago or whatever, you know, which is which is significant. So it’s hard in medicine, because that’s not on a gross level redrawing tissue, but probably microscopically, but then we’re not going to go in there and take little samples to see, you know, kind of the growth. But when you don’t see degeneration, I think that’s significant.
Diva Nagula 19:42
Right? I totally understand that. I agree with that. There’s also this whole talk about what you were alluding to in the beginning of our conversation about different options and the different types of stem cells that are available. And so obviously went through discussing autologous stem cells. What about stem cells that are received from the umbilical or exosomes. Can you define and describe more about that?
Jordanna Quinn 20:05
Yeah, I’ve used both. So umbilical stem cells, essentially what they do you know, now at some hospitals when women have babies, there’s someone in there asking them if, if they want to keep their umbilical cells for their own cord blood stem cells down the road? And if they say no, and they say, Can we have it for research purposes, if the patient says, yes, they take the umbilical cord, they get the cells, and then they make sure there’s no infections, and they do all the things to make sure they’re safe and sterile. And then they sell them to practitioners. And there is a lot of controversy. And if they work, you don’t reject them, because they don’t have the antigens for rejection, because they’re umbilical cells, so you can give them to anybody. But there have been some physicians that have bought umbilical cells from different companies, and played them out to see if they were alive and found no live cells or things like that. So they’re finding stem cells, but they’re not alive. And so the theory is, is that the freeze thaw process, however, I mean, I don’t have the lab in my office. So I don’t have the ability to do that. But I’ve used umbilical cells, for example, I had another 90 year old patient who needed hip replacements. And she was like, maybe 100 pounds sopping wet, there was zero way I was going to tap into her osteoporotic pelvis, or get any fat from her. So she was a candidate for umbilical cells. And to me it was amazing to have that technology for someone like her. But if you, you seem young, and like healthy, if you came to me, that’s not the path I’d probably take for you. Because it is injecting an outside substance, which, you know, is not regulated like catalogue or regulated like we’re used to in medicine. And so you just really don’t know, I do have a company that I’ve been with for a long time. And I trust and they’re the only company and they were one of the first on the market for umbilical sales are early on. Now there’s, again, a lot more companies, and they’re always trying to sell their cells to me, and I just, I don’t trust people. I think there’s more people out there, there’s trying to make money, that aren’t upstanding companies. And it’s really sad. But that’s my take on it. And so, I think there’s a time and a place for umbilical cells. But again, it’s so it’s coming from outside source, and whether they’re alive or not, the times I’ve used it, my patients have gotten benefit. There’s a theory or, you know, we’re thinking like, how do they get benefit, and I’m thinking a lot of it just goes back to that stem cell signaling, right, you’re putting the cells in there, even if they’re dead, they are simulating the same, you know, autocannon, perikanan response in your body to bring new cells in and to bring platelets in and that sort of thing, right? So it’s probably doing that, but, you know, it’s, I would compare it to, again, you you’re putting your own stem cells, they are like the worker bees, right? They’re in there, they’re trying to do all the work. So you’re gonna put all of these live worker bees in or you’re gonna maybe put some lazy ones, and you know, you want the alive ones. So I personally think autologous is better but again, I’ve had patients get benefit from both.
Diva Nagula 23:54
A question that comes to mind for me is that in that 90 year old patient, and say she wasn’t as osteoporotic as she was, and he decided to and you could harvest his own stem cells through a fat or combination of fat and bone marrow. Those cells are 90 years old, right? So why would you be using those in regenerative purposes for that patient versus umbilical?
Jordanna Quinn 24:35
Yeah, that is also an argument in regenerative medicine. And I think the thing is, is yeah, her cells are 90 years old, but we’re getting billions and billions of them. I mean, so we’re getting the concentrated version of them. And this was years ago, but I went to a cell biology conference. And they had plated it out old cells and young cells and in the end, when they were growing didn’t find any difference in the actual quality of cell which I found very interesting. Is that still the case? I don’t know, that was a few years ago. And regenerative medicine is constantly evolving, and we’re learning new things. But that was so clear to me. And so it is interesting that there’s all these theories in cardiovascular world, I did talk to a cardiologist once and they’re all about umbilical cells, because young is better, young is better. And it could be just in different applications of different diseases young is better versus old. But because we’re getting so I mean, we’re getting so many cells when we’re when we’re able to harvest someone else’s. Even, at some point, it’s a concentration game, so I don’t have like a good answer. But there was a one doc who did test out the same doc, he’s pretty anti anything other than autologous cells. But he did a study. And then they tried to measure the concentrate, like follow the stem cells in the patient and found that also, umbilical cells don’t stick around as long, which we don’t know what that means, you know? Because is it just like, hey, they need to stimulate this stimulating response. And that’s it. But they don’t stay around as long in the joint. So that’s the thing. We don’t know how to interpret that information. So yeah, I don’t disagree. I mean, I think, I do think when you have a concentration, like if you’re doing IV stem cells or something, you probably want younger cells. But again, the concentration game, I think, is really important to remember, because you’re just not going to get those concentrations in umbilical cells.
Diva Nagula 26:28
Right. And then there’s conversation about exosomes.
Jordanna Quinn 26:33
Okay, so I’m very biased, anti. So what zones are they basically take the umbilical cells and then they take these things called vesicles, which are pouches inside the cells. And they take out – so the pouches are actually what’s what scientists have found are doing the signaling, right. So I guess they’re just like, oh, we’ll take what we need. We don’t need the whole umbilical cell. We just need these pouches, they do the signaling, and we get the same response. And while that sounds great, to things, I mean, just immediately, I think, well, there’s, you know, there’s a reason you eat the whole egg, you eat the yellow and the white, because they have different benefits, but they also work together in your body to actually help digest it better. So when you just eat the whites, or when you just eat the yolk, there’s a whole different body process that happens to digest it, because you’re not eating the whole, if that makes sense. So the same thing with stem cells, I just have an innate belief system that we should use the whole, like, I don’t see a good reason to not use it. So there’s an argument also, that we don’t know what the exosomes are doing, because we don’t really know what they are. And I kind of find that argument to be not viable, because then the same could be for stem cells, we don’t really know where they’re going and what they’re doing or whatever. So, I mean, so I think they sound good reason to use that people want to use exosomes are because they’re just purchased. And I think they’re the new hottest thing in regenerative medicine, I have used exosomes, because I have patients who are very well read and want the latest and greatest, and I’ve used them and I’ve had them personally and I find that they are amazing for two weeks, and so the longevity just isn’t there. I mean, amazing, like, you feel amazing for two weeks, and then it like pretty much completely goes away. And maybe it’s a slow fall off, as compared to stem cells where patients get long term benefit, I just have not seen I’ve used them three times, once personally and in two patients who asked me to, you know, and I have the conversation if we don’t really know what they do. Like there are a lot of money XYZ. And so I thought it was under promising, but I have not find found them to be amazing. And so there’s still 1000s of dollars.
Diva Nagula 28:38
Would you consider doing like this super combo of PRP, you know, autologous stem cells,
exosomes and the umbilical cord cells? Or is there a utility of doing that combination?
Jordanna Quinn 28:52
I mean, there might be a utility, but I mean, just buying like, hard costs of x’s ohms are multi $1,000, hard cost of umbilical cells, or multi $1,000, then my bone marrow kit is $1,000. My adipose kit is $1,000. So you’re looking at a $10,000 procedure, almost just in the cost of supplies, not even like my time or my expertise, the ultrasound machine that I’m using or any of that. So I just think from an actual cost standpoint, it doesn’t make sense that maybe if I lived in Beverly Hills, it would be just charged people $15,000 and call it a day, I don’t know.
Diva Nagula 29:25
Right. And then there’s also the rather than injecting into the joints in degenerative areas, there’s also cosmetic procedures, but also people are injecting it intravenously. So I’m assuming that the benefit of that is because they just go to wherever there’s an injury or there’s some sort of degeneration going on in the body and then that’s where these stem cells attract and go to and then they start their process of regeneration.
Jordanna Quinn 29:52
Yea, it’s so interesting. So for IV stem cells, you have to buy umbilical cells or exosomes or there’s an easy way to process fat that we don’t do anymore. But I think some people still do. And I don’t honestly know if it’s federally illegal or legal in Colorado, but we used to do it. And we would break down fat using lipase. And so then basically, long story short is that you can make an injectable. But that’s illegal I think federally, actually, but we don’t do it ever since it became illegal. And we saw some amazing results. I mean, amazing results with like COPD, like completely reversing destroyed lungs, like it was mind blowing. Amazing.
Diva Nagula 30:30 These are just exosomes?
Jordanna Quinn 30:32
No stem cells, adipose stem cells. So some people still do it. And they’re they’re being shut
down all over the country because it’s illegal.
Diva Nagula 30:39
So is this the reason why a lot of professional athletes are going abroad to get these types of
Jordanna Quinn 30:45
Yes. And I think they don’t know. And it’s probably much cheaper abroad. I don’t know everything is like medical supplies in the states are so much more expensive than when I see in other countries. And it’s the same companies, they’re selling it to us at six times the cost. Although I guess professional athletes probably don’t care too much. But also, just as an aside, I’ve seen a bunch of professional athletes, and they’re very secretive about their health, and their health care. And I don’t know if you’ve ever worked with professional athletes, but it’s like, you cannot get their imaging. So you’d like there’s so many so much red tape to go through. And they don’t want anyone to know that they’re doing the procedure, it’s just it’s very difficult. So if they’re doing alternative treatments, they also probably don’t want people to know about it.
Diva Nagula 31:30
But you can actually perform exosomes and injected intravenously just not like your your fat
Jordanna Quinn 31:37
Correct. So I have done that, I’ve done IV, to patients, who again, we have a whole conversation, because the cells are not FDA approved. That’s another big controversial area, they’re never going to be FDA approved. Exosomes were trying to get FDA approval under the category of drugs, because once you take those vesicles out of the cell, and then you’re replicating that vesicle and so it’s a drug – went through all the red tape.
Diva Nagula 32:02
And then is that still holds true the two week benefit? And then pretty much you just kind of
lose any improvements.
Jordanna Quinn 32:08
Yeah, yes. So I did have a patient who worked, he would sell umbilical cells. And so he convinced me to do his product and I said, okay, well, you know, you sell them so that’s fine. And he told me the story. So I mean, so everybody has said that they just feel better, like genuinely just better who have done IV stem cells. But he came back and he told me the whole process. And he told me that he did IV stem cells. And I forget the timeline, I want to say three or four weeks later, he started noticing increased pain in areas where maybe he had broken toes when he was a kid or injured himself. There’s something in his foot, I don’t remember maybe his broken toes. There was like a few different areas that he was like, notable that he had injured as a kid, or as a teenager, whatever, his sports, and they were painful. And then they got better and like healed. And but I mean, it’s hard because he didn’t necessarily have pain, like in his toes before. But overall, he still felt better. But he just kind of talked me through the process of things hurting and then feeling better. And it was all in areas where he’d injured himself before. So I just think that’s so awesome. Like, the body is so cool that it knows those things.
Diva Nagula 33:14
Yeah. And it so when you do the injections, let’s say if they weren’t illegal, and you had stem cells injected into the intravenously. I mean, to me, it makes sense that the first place it’s going to hit is the lungs. Right?
Jordanna Quinn 33:26
Which is why it’s so good for COPD, stem cells love COPD, I mean, love lungs, and so yes, exactly. They’re doing a bunch of studies during COVID in Israel and China and I think they had one in Texas. I was following them because I have one patient, well I have two patients, but one, mid 40s Olympic athletes got COVID so bad. He’s got everything. He had a mini stroke. He’s now in permanent heart failure, like all of the clotting things, he had everything and he lives at high altitude in southern Colorado, couldn’t go back home for months, like literally had to rent a house in Phoenix because he couldn’t breathe. All of his CAT scans are native, like they look amazing. I mean, but he can’t even walk fast without getting extremely short of breath. We’re talking like nine months out from COVID. He got it on March 6. So we were talking about doing stem cells, but it was this the whole conversation of like, it’s not proven. But this is like, you know, kind of last ditch effort. He’s tried everything else. Nothing’s helping. I mean, he’s otherwise recovered and fine. He still has this like burning in his head that I find really interesting from like his stroke. But yeah, I mean, because stem cells love the lungs, and they’re doing studies, I thought it would have been amazing. But I even reached out to a few different companies to say, hey, can we do a mini trial and just get some stem cells for free? None of them wanted to help me. So I mean, I don’t know that he’s gonna do it. That was months ago. But I don’t know. It’s just it’s so interesting. So the studies have shown great things, but it’s just so controversial.
Diva Nagula 35:02
And that’s why I’m imagining a lot of these people are going, you know, to Mexico or to places
in Europe to get these done. Because the restrictions are a lot looser there.
Jordanna Quinn 35:11
Yes. Well also, one of the restrictions here in the US is you can’t expand stem cells. So you can’t take someone’s stem cells, and then multiply them and then inject them back in you. Basically, it’s called like minimal manipulation, you can take them out and like wash them and like treat them kindly, and then inject them back in. But you can’t try to build them. So there’s at least one or two Doc’s in the states that have clinics in other countries so that they can expand the stem cells and inject them back in. But also, in general, when I mean, 10 years ago, when I first started doing this, we would tell patients like, Okay, well, here’s a company that expands the stem cells in the US, you can take your cells to Mexico, and someone will do the procedure. I don’t recommend people do that anymore. Because I also, even though I said concentration is important, it is important, I think we get enough concentration, just by getting the stem cells out here. I guess I have known a handful of people who have done the overseas thing with expanded stem cells, and I haven’t, based on their opinion, haven’t really seen for the cost and time. And all of that, like that much percentage of benefit to amplify stem cells. So I’m not personally convinced that that’s needed. It makes sense. Again, just like, Oh, we can take your 10 stem cells and turn it into 1000. But I don’t know I’m sure there’s, you know, a plateau effect with whre we already get some stem cells? Or, you know, we get billions, but we get 10, that’s all you need. We don’t need those to be 1000. Or maybe their potency decreases with every time you replicate them, you know, who knows? So I just don’t personally feel like I’ve seen that. We’re gonna I’m gonna see the failures or the people who aren’t satisfied. So I’m seeing a bias patient population as well. But I just didn’t feel like their reports were amazing.
Diva Nagula 36:50
Yeah, that makes sense. And then obviously, the last utilization in medicine in terms of injecting these regenerative factors is aesthetics. Are you doing any aesthetics in your practice?
Jordanna Quinn 37:00
I do, again, like patient demand. And so I do tons of like PRP or what’s called vampire facials. It’s trademarked. Yeah, where you take your platelets, and then you can either put it on your face and microneedle it in or inject it. And again, it’s one I mean, I’ve done it to myself many times, or my nurse does it to me, and 100% of the time, like a month after I get it done, people like your skin looks amazing. I don’t notice a difference, because we’re our own worst critics. And all I see is aging. But I always get compliments, which I find amazing, because I don’t tell anybody that I’ve done anything. So it’s doing something. But also it’s hard to see because we’re aging, right. So, but we know that the platelets stimulate collagen, they’re bringing in growth factors and things, the needle itself stimulates collagen. So I mean, just the science behind it. And I know we’re not allowed to just like have common sense in science, but the common sense would state that it is doing something, or plastic surgeon actually came and trained me a couple of times in doing fat transfers, which I think is cool. And so years ago, when I got trained in doing fat transfers, that was just like, for the purpose of like filler, right? So you’re using your body’s own fat to fill in areas. But now we know that I mean, fat is such an awesome stem cell provider. It’s not just a filler, it’s also really stimulating collagen kind of like over and over. And so people who do fat transfers, and I don’t do a lot of that. But people who do fat transfers or get fat transfers, as opposed to fillers are really benefiting from that improved collagen and their skin tends to look a lot more amazing, not just because of the quantity of filler, but because of that stem cell component.
Diva Nagula 38:38
Besides the facial vampire, or are you doing any other aesthetic, so I know people have other
aesthetics that they’re doing, they’re doing the O shot and T shot things of that nature.
Jordanna Quinn 38:48
I’ll do that a patient asked. I don’t I mean, again, I come from a PMNR background. I like ortho and sports. But I can’t do it right. The hardest thing I mean, the hardest part is processing the cells correctly, you want to make sure you have a good kit, or you know your numbers. I mean learning how to do the adipose and the bone marrow. So once you know that, and again in PMNR. I think injecting a knee takes a lot more skill than injecting hair or private parts. And I’m so I’ve been trained in that. It’s just because at some conferences, they kind of train you and everything is why not. And so if my current patients asked me to do it, I’ll totally do it. And it works. It definitely works. But it’s not something I advertise because it’s not really my favorite thing to do. Got it. Yeah, I understand rather help someone, like get on their bike again or go ski. You know, sex is important, though. I don’t know.
Diva Nagula 39:35
Right? And then what are your thoughts on injecting ozone with stem cells or PRP into joints?
Jordanna Quinn 39:45
So I would say I don’t know enough about it. I have taken a course on it. A couple of hours of like a webinar or whatever you want to call it and it sounds promising and it sounds amazing. It’s just one more thing that I haven’t learned. I feel like I have so many tools in my tool. box already. But you know, people, I mean, there truly is something for everyone, there isn’t one thing for everyone. So is ozone going to be the added thing that just fixes everyone? I don’t know. I mean, I know patients who’ve gotten amazing benefit from it. And I know people have had no effects from it and didn’t notice a difference. They’re also just again becomes a point where it’s like, I could do all of these services. Sometimes I actually put peptides in my PRP, and like to do all these services, but I don’t charge my patients more for that. It’s just like, or sometimes I use hyolauranic acid and PRP, because there was a study that showed that that actually worked better than either alone, but it’s like, patients are only gonna pay so much. And I am terrible at charging my patients for things. So I can’t just keep adding services, because I think they’re cool. You know, like, there has to be a cost benefit, you know, and so with ozone that’s just kind of like one more thing I could take a course by and hope people want to pay for I don’t know, you know?
Diva Nagula 40:55
Yeah, no, I get it. It’s just, I was just curious to hear your thoughts because I had visited a provider who was offering a training course and what she did was she did mix everything, the PRP as well as the ozone and she did inject it into scars as well as into into other areas joints and they seem to be really effective results. But again, you know, you’re getting the results with what you’re doing. You know, is it necessary to do the next step though? Probably not. But it’s always up there.
Jordanna Quinn 41:21
Totally. That’s I mean, same with like the peptides, I just, I do sometimes in severe cases or whatever. I don’t know if you know anything about peptides, but there’s one called BPC 157. That’s good for a tendon repair. And I have personal experience with it. I’m a huge skeptic. Like I try things on myself before patients. And so in the beginning of COVID, I got Achilles tendonitis from taking levofloxacin that was a bummer. It was so bad. It was so bad. I don’t know if you’ve ever had it, but it hurts so bad for so long. And then the beginning of COVID. I mean, Colorado, it was March, so it’s cold, and I couldn’t like I’m not a runner, but I was becoming a runner because I had a treadmill. I couldn’t do anything. Anyhow, so I had Achilles tendonitis for months. I got a PRP injection. I don’t know if it helped or not, I honestly don’t remember. And then I had a patient at the same time as one of my patient forever Achilles tendonitis for years, he’s had ankle pain years. So I did PRP on him and I was like, Well, you know, and I tried taking BPC 157 I’m trying it. And both of us two or three months later, no Achilles tendonitis. Obviously, there’s always a time thing with healing, but he had his for years. So we did PRP and BBC 157. And that was in the summer, and he’s been totally fine. He’s skiing and he’s running. He’s doing alll the things. And my ankle literally is one of those things that you notice because it hurts everyday. And when you don’t have pain, you don’t notice. But suddenly, I was like, Oh my gosh, I haven’t felt this in a long time.
Diva Nagula 42:48
Yeah, no, I’ve been researching peptides and had a gentleman on my podcast recently to discuss peptides. And it was fascinating. So yeah, this is great. This is great work. And thank you for all the work that you do on this topic. And for my listeners who are curious about hearing more about you or regenerative medicine, where can they find more information about you?
Jordanna Quinn 43:08
So they can find me? My website is koremedicine.com. Also, those are my social media handles, @koremedicine. We do virtual consults, at least, you know, initially, obviously to do the procedures people have to be in my office, but I’m happy to do virtual consults. You know, to keep it quick and easy for patients. And reach out if you have questions. I love it.
Diva Nagula 43:34
All right. Well, thanks so much for joining us.
Jordanna Quinn 43:36
You’re welcome. Thanks for having me.